John Wisniewski is a writer who resides in New York. He has written for LA Review of Books, AMFM Magazine, Toronto Review of Books, and other publications. Gwendolyn Taunton is a past recipient of the Ashton Wylie Award for Literary Excellence, author of Tantric Traditions, Fate and the Twilight of the Gods, Primordial Traditions, The Path of Shadows, and has published articles in a vast range of books and magazines. Interview republished with permission.
When did your interest in magic and mysticism begin, Gwendolyn?
It began in early childhood, on my very first visit to the public library. I started reading at three, so by the time I was five – and eligible for a library card – I had slightly more pronounced literary preferences than the average child of my age. My family were essentially non-denominational and not especially interested in religion/spirituality, so my interest arose purely from the literature I selected. I was always a voracious reader of non-fiction, and I also read a lot of biology books for fun as a child.
I started with the more accessible library books in these areas – Greek mythology, ancient history, and also a lot of Māori spirituality. This interest in Māori religion/spirituality developed because I was raised in New Zealand, which has taken more care in preserving the indigenous culture of the country, compared to other British colonies such as America and Australia, which, overall, treated the native populations very badly. Māori was also taught in school in New Zealand, so my interest in this was not as exotic as it sounds.
The common ground betwixt Greek mythology and Māori traditions is not only the rich tapestry of myth and folklore but also the polytheist perspective; wherein there are multiple deities reflected in both the natural world and in the psyche. This means that my interest in esoterica was developed exclusively in the context of polytheism. I have never had an interest in monotheism and find it very restrictive in comparison to polytheist traditions.
When I became older and developed more nuanced tastes, I diverged into European folklore, Ancient Egyptian, Hinduism, and Eastern texts. I’ve read all the contemporary magic(k) books of course, but I prefer the older ones. In a nutshell, I’ve been reading these books now for over thirty years, since I first learned to read.
Should Westerners research more into eastern religious thought and practices? Could this aid us?
Absolutely. If we examine the history of Western thought – in the context of magic and religion- the vast majority of ideas have already been based on Middle Eastern traditions, which instantly negates any argument against adopting non-European practices. The advent of Christianity virtually erased all traces of pagan and heathen thought, which were the only indigenous ‘Western’ spiritual traditions. Even though there are some immensely dedicated movements making considerable progress in reconstructing ancient pagan/heathen traditions, a lot of valuable knowledge has been irrevocably lost. In this regard, Hinduism, in particular, is useful to study because it is the closest living major religion to those of ancient Europe, and it can provide many useful historical insights into the Pre-Christian West.
In terms of philosophy and spiritual development, I would also say that Eastern religious thought is useful – if employed as a genuine teaching. There are, unfortunately, a lot of ‘snake oil salesmen’ in the West peddling fake mediation courses, etc. One need only look at the fact that the West has ‘beer yoga’ and ‘goat yoga’ classes to know that something has gone drastically wrong with our understanding of Eastern practices. The copious amount of Tantric sex manuals is another prime example of this misunderstanding. This is not to blame the practitioners, of course, many people do have a genuine interest in spirituality, but instead of finding the real Eastern Traditions, they sometimes find charlatans who exploit them for money. It’s often very difficult for beginners to find a genuine teacher, and when people are just setting out to discover their spiritual side, some of them, unfortunately, fall prey to unscrupulous individuals. The Eastern Traditions can be of immense value to interested practitioners, but people need to be careful about who they select to teach them.
Increasing our experience base also extends our knowledge, and occasionally, everyone needs to ‘get out of the comfort zone’ to make progress.
Could you tell us about the collection of essays called “Primordial Traditions“? It features writings on many world magical traditions.
Primordial Traditions was my first book, so it’s been in print for about a decade now. Shortly after publication, the book won a $10,000 literary award for excellence in the area of spirituality. The first incarnation of Primordial Traditions was as a collection of articles from a free webzine that was produced online as a hobby from 2006-2010.
The name Primordial Traditions still seems to confuse a lot of people, however. It’s a substitute term for perennial philosophy, as espoused by Huston Smith (Forgotten Truth: The Primordial Tradition). Perennial philosophy, or Sophia Perennis, is a branch of religious philosophy that examines the underlying ideas in religions to look for common grounds. I agree with Smith that this is the best name to describe the modern current of perennial philosophy. The ‘s’ has been added to Smith’s terminology to show that although there is a multiplicity of Primordial Traditions that originate from the source, each one still encapsulates an individual identity. The transmission and nature of the numinous remain the same, but every spiritual tradition is shaped by unique historical, meteorological, and geographical events.
In the past, with a few exceptions, it has only been the major religions which have been discussed in relation to perennial philosophy. The name ‘Primordial Traditions’ makes this area of research more inclusive. Shamanic cultures, pagans/heathens, indigenous/folk traditions, and occult practitioners have an equally valid claim to the numinous as any other religion, so I don’t see why they should be excluded from perennial philosophy. Moreover, magic of any variety is developed in the framework of a specific religion or cultural context, so magic is almost always encountered under the broader aegis of a spiritual tradition, and on that basis, it cannot be excluded from perennial philosophy. This is why both the book and the publication contained occult practices from countries all over the globe.
As mentioned earlier, my view of perennial philosophy is that although spiritual traditions share common features, they are not all identical. External events such as disasters, plagues, famine, and war can alter the teachings. Human transmission also causes problems through the misunderstanding of symbolism, mistranslations of texts, and deliberate corruption by political movements such as the Spanish Inquisition, ‘witch’ burnings, ISIS, and even the Alt-Right, who recently declared they were against perennial philosophy because it runs contrary to their political agenda.
Gwendolyn, you have written as well about Norse legends and traditions. What interested you about this form of magic?
The first part of Fate and the Twilight of the Gods examines the events surrounding (and leading towards) Ragnarök. Magic appears in the second section, which relates to the concepts of fate and destiny. Primarily I have approached this by analyzing the wise and puissant triad of Goddesses known as the Norns or Nornir (Urðr, Verðandi, and Skuld). The Norns are very similar to the Greek Moirai (Klotho, Lachesis, and Atropos), the Roman Parcae, and other depictions of the Fates. Essentially, the Norns (and the other Fates) operate in a very similar way to Rta/Dharma/Karma in Hinduism – however, although the functions are equivalent at the level of philosophical abstraction, these concepts were never anthropomorphized, so they are not completely tantamount to the Norns.
The Norns are often depicted doing spinning, but this doesn’t relate to textile crafts. Rather, ‘spinning’ is a metaphor for a ‘tapestry of words,’ wherein language is ‘woven’ via a magical process to become the warp and weft of human destiny. The decisions pronounced by the Norns are articulated magically, based on destiny, present actions, and future judgment. The most important aspect of the magical power of the Norns is that fate is not ‘fixed’ until it is pronounced. The true magical act of the Nornir lies not in the spinning, but the art of the spoken word.
In the mundane world of mortals, magic is utilized in the same fashion – with the macrocosmic function replicated on the microcosmic level. As above so below, to use a popular idiom. When articulated as part of a specific technique, language passes from the subjective state, acting as a medium by which to bring an event into the corporeal state of reality, and language then transcends the liminal boundary between the subject and the object. It is, therefore, not a coincidence that the runes, although bestowed by Odin, are also connected to the Norns. The runes are both a language and, in an occult sense, imbued with magical power.
What will your next book be about, Gwendolyn?
I’m currently writing two books at the moment. The first one is going to be very long and is about the philosophy of individualism. It will contain a lot of Nietzsche’s ideas, and will also include philosophers and authors who had similar thoughts in the past, along with those who expanded on them in the future.
The second book is probably of more interest to your readers. It researches how ancient Middle Eastern Traditions initially developed from a polytheistic point of origin, and how they shifted to a monotheistic perspective. It will also describe how rival deities and political enemies were disparaged and eventually became the ‘demons’ and ‘devils’ that they are commonly portrayed as today. The core premise is that most of these bugaboos were created via a process of deliberate vilification and political aspirations in the ancient Middle East. The book will be drawing on a lot of ancient mythology and demonology, in addition to tracing its development through carefully selected religious and occult texts.
This book will also demonstrate how similar processes have occurred in Buddhism and aspects of Hinduism, where some wrathful and older deities have undergone similar transformations, while others have emerged from history unscathed.
